HashemisBeautiful

So as far as all have sinned and comparing Adam's sin and our sins, it's not that we have Adam and Eve's sin on us, rather because they sinned in the garden of eden, it brought death upon them, and since we all come from Adam and Eve's lineage, we also have this sin nature but that doesn't mean that I get extra sins added on to me that Adam or anyone else did. It just means that everyone sins throughout their lives, but I don't get Adam and Eve's sin upon myself, only what sin I have done, and that's what it means when we say "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

What you said here is interesting and important. Equally important is the different way in which Judaism and Christianity deal this event, this sin that Adam committed, and its repercussions. Rather than putting it into my own words I've typed what the Ramchal (Rabbi Moshe Chayim Luzzatto - 1707-1746) wrote in his book "The Way of God," originally written in Hebrew. The information below is critical to understanding the fundamental differences between the Jewish and Christian approaches to this very real problem:

"Among the things that one must realize is the fact that man has been radically altered. As a result of Adam's sin, a great change took place, transforming both man and his world to a large degree, entailing many things and having numerous effects. When we speak of man and his environment, we must therefore distinguish between his state before the sin and his state afterwards.

When Adam was first created, he was precisely in the state that we have discussed until now, composed of two equal opposites, the body and the soul. His environment contained both good and evil, and he was balanced between the two to choose whichever he wished.

The appropriate thing for him to have done would have been to choose the good. Had he done so, his soul would have overcome his body, and the spiritual would have dominated the physical. He would have then immediately attained perfection, and it would have remained with him forever.

We are normally aware of the soul's existence only because it provides us with life, and the ability to think. It is necessary to realize, however, that the soul also has another function - to purify man's physical body, gradually elevating it until it, too, can take pleasure from perfection along with the soul.

If Adam had not sinned, he would have been able to attain this total perfection. His would would have purified his body step by step, until he reached the level required to permanently partake of the everlasting bliss.

When Adam sinned, however, things were greatly changed. The amount of evil that existed initially was just enough to assure that man would be in a perfect balance, allowing him to gain perfection through his own efforts. When man sinned, though, he caused evil to increase, both in himself and in creation. As a result, it became much more difficult for him to attain the perfection that God intended for him.

At first it was very easy for man to overcome his natural faults attain perfection. The Highest Wisdom had arranged things in the best and fairest manner. The only reason why evil and deficiency existed in man was to make it a part of his nature, a part that he would willfully abandon in favor of good. By simply disassociating himself from deficiencies [in both himself and in the world] the first man was supposed to bring about the perfection, immediately. [No further effort would be necessary.]

When Adam sinned, however, he personally caused concealment of perfection and thus an increase of evil. Man himself was responsible for the greater amount of evil that existed in him, and it therefore became much more difficult for him to abandon it. He could no longer earn perfection as easily as when he personally bore no responsibility for his personal deficiencies.

The effort required to earn perfection was therefore double. Man must first bring both himself and the world back to the state in which they existed before the first sin. Only then can he raise himself from that state to his destined level of perfection.

Besides this, justice decreed that neither man nor the world will ever be able to rise to perfection while still in their current fallen state. Because they remain in this spoiled, non-ideal condition, and evil in the meantime has increased, both must go through a stage of destruction before either can arrive at perfection.

Man must therefore die, and everything else that was corrupted with him also must perish. The soul cannot purify the body until the body dies and deteriorates and a new structure is composed, that the soul can enter and purify. The entire world must likewise be destroyed and cease to exist in its present form, and it must then be renewed in a new state worthy of perfection.

It was therefore decreed that man should die and then be brought back to life. This is the concept of the Resurrection of the Dead [Techiyas ha-Mesim].

The entire world must similarly be destroyed and then renewed. This is the meaning of what our Sages taught, "Six thousand years will the world exist, and for one thousand it will be desolate. at the end of this thousand years, God will again renew His world."

So being orthodox Jew, there are scriptures in the Tanakh that say for example in Psalm 130:3 - If you, Lord, kept a record of sins, Lord, who could stand?

I'm glad you brought that up, as we often say this verse in certain parts of our prayers. I should preface this with a concern that I have, and then I'll get to the nitty-gritty. I get the impression often when speaking to Christians, or reading things written by Christians, that they think that we (Jews) aren't aware of the problem of sin. It's as if we go about our merry lives oblivious to the problem of sin, and try to remedy it with trinkets and niceties, sort of like putting band-aids on a fatal wound. I don't necessarily think that that's your view, but it unfortunately seems to be the standard assumption when talking to Jews. The above quotation from the Ramchal may also shed some light on this point.

Meaning, who on judgement day would be able to stand in righteousness in the judgement of God who is perfectly righteous and holy? The answer is well no one.

Having said that, our answer to the above question is quite simply "God's mercy." But let's look at this in context to be more accurate because I have a feeling that this is not satisfactory in and-of-itself. First of all, there is a very strong tendency in Christianity to "push verses" in the desired direction, i.e., towards a theology of reconciliation through Jesus. You may not even realize that it's being done because you are already convinced of the answer. We (Jews) do that too, by the way, such as assuming that Abraham knew that Isaac was the chosen one and not Ishmael. We have the luxury of knowing "how the story ends," but Abraham did not, and it truly seemed for a while that God was going to choose Ishmael instead (up until Genesis 22).

So let's look at this verse in Psalms in context. It doesn't seem that King David is using this question as the utterance of, or the basis for, a theological doctrine. What seems far more natural is that this statement expresses the explicit recognition that God is in command and the ultimate Judge; nobody is forgiven unless He decides it so. It is not saying that "nobody is forgiven for their inherited sinful state," it is saying "nobody is forgiven for the sins that they have committed," unless, that is, they truly repent. It is the required mindset that a person must obtain when returning in repentance, or more generally, it is the correct state of mind that one must try to foster at all times, but specifically with repentance.

It is also one of those questions asked to God in a rhetorical fashion, which is quite common in the Tanakh, as with Abraham's rapid fire line of rhetorical questions to God in Genesis 18:23-28:

And Abraham approached and said, "Will You even destroy the righteous with the wicked? Perhaps there are fifty righteous men in the midst of the city; will You even destroy and not forgive the place for the sake of the fifty righteous men who are in its midst? Far be it from You to do a thing such as this, to put to death the righteous with the wicked so that the righteous should be like the wicked. Far be it from You! Will the Judge of the entire earth not perform justice?" And the Lord said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous men within the city, I will forgive the entire place for their sake." And Abraham answered and said, "Behold now I have commenced to speak to the Lord, although I am dust and ashes. Perhaps the fifty righteous men will be missing five. Will You destroy the entire city because of five?" And He said, "I will not destroy if I find there forty-five."

Further, the question itself implies the answer: O God, if You keep [a record of] iniquities, O Lord, who will stand? So please don't keep the record of my iniquity; tear it up and throw it away, forgive me for the sins that I have committed. It is fitting that the very next verse says, "For forgiveness is with You, in order that You be feared." I have sinned, I am confessing my sin to you, I am submitting that you are the King of the world, please forgive my sin. That's how we read it, and that's how King David seems to have intended it.

Thats not just a sin here and there, thats who they are continually... on top of their continuous rebellion towards God, all the other sins they commit.

True, but you must understand that this is not necessarily part of their inherited sinful nature from Adam; it is the outcome of repeating individual sins over and over again until they become part of one's nature. Every individual sin can become part of his nature if he repeats it enough. There is a statement in the Talmud that a repeated sin becomes "permissible" to the person, i.e., he makes it permissible to himself in his mind such that he is no longer bothered by committing it. The only difference between this continuously rebellious state and all other sins is that they started as individual sins and became a state of mind, a mindset, but it is more nurture than nature; the person has pursued the sin repeatedly and made it a part of his nature. 

Then there is the believers group, who for the most part sacrifice "or used to sacrifice" something "animals" day in and day out, year after year because they are sinful. I don't think that there is really any way around it, we live in a sinful fallen world and God who is perfect righteous and holy who couldn't just set perfect justice aside because that would make God not perfect, His justice towards sin/evil would fail.

Right, so let's break this down on a practical level. A good number of commandments could only be done on certain holidays. Other commandments were only relevant to certain people, such as Cohanim (priests) or Levites. Other commandments were specific only to certain situations, such as having come into contact with a dead body (although there are many examples of other situational commandments). A good number of commandments don't seem to be enforceable, such as "to emulate God's ways" (Deuteronomy 28:9), or "to cleave to those who swear by God's Name" (Deuteronomy 10:20). Further, some commandments required a great deal of deliberation to actually transgress, such as Ov and Yidoni (a form of sorcery - Leviticus 19:31). Further, sacrifices were only brought for commandments that were transgressed indeliberately, i.e., if a person forget or was careless.

This leaves us with much less than 613 commandments that required sacrifices. A normal person would have only had to bring one if he transgressed a commandment that was relevant at normal times (not a holiday), to all people (i.e., to him), in everyday situations (some Wednesday afternoon), was enforceable, and was committed through negligence. Further, negligence seems much more common to the negative commandments (the "do nots) because people become accustomed to performing daily or weekly activities; it's just the nature of things. For example, you probably don't forget to shower or brush your teeth on a daily basis (hopefully), and you would be even less likely to if you knew the spiritual importance of it. Likewise, for example, most Jewish men (who are Orthodox) don't simply forget to put on tefillin (Deuteronomy 6:8), or not to eat pork. These things become a normal part of one's repertoire, especially if taught from childhood, so it becomes increasingly unlikely that he will transgress them indeliberately.

When you take all of that into account you get what seems like a relatively manageable endeavor of bringing animal sacrifices for indeliberate sins. And further, all of this can only be done in the presence of a Temple (either in Israel or in other lands). Practically speaking, the two Temples seem to have been around for a relative minority of Jewish history (which is a sad thing), meaning that sacrifices were forbidden to be brought the majority of the time. And if you ask, "How did Jews atone for indeliberate transgressions as described above with no Temple," the answer is found in Hosea 14:2-3 (written before the destruction of the First Temple): "Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take words with yourselves and return to the Lord. Say, 'You shall forgive all iniquity and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.'" In other words, God told the Jews to pray and confess their sins in the absence of the Temples as a substitution for sacrifices.

Regarding deliberate sins, no sacrifices could be brought in such a case, and the person was required only to repent without them. This is because deliberate sins are too severe for sacrifices, so that added benefit is unavailable to him; he has to rely purely on repentance.

Now let's address this on the theological level:

There is an idea discussed within our most ancient sources that God initially sought to create the world based on strict justice, and in His perfect foresight saw that the world would not not last for one instance in that state. However, because justice cannot be eliminated or annihilated, He made the world out of a perfect "mixture" of both justice and mercy. Therefore, for example, when a person sins, which according to the demands of strict justice would blot him out of existence immediately, God patiently gives him time to repent. This patience, by the way, can last until his dying day, which is why a person is allowed to repent for as long as he lives.

All throughout the Tanakh, God says that He is the Savior, not us, we are the one's who need saving for we can NOT approach the holy throne of God and be clean, spotless, pure, holy by our own attempt.

Yes and no. We cannot associate with God in a sinful state, but He allows us to repent and therefore restore our relationship with Him and therefore to associate with Him. This is what God meant when He said to Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it." (Genesis 4:6-7)

Further, if God is responsible for making the association between us and Him possible, our free will ceases to have purpose. I am not referring to the Calvinistic debate that Christians have regarding predestination, but something different: we were created in God's image. The only way that a human being can be "like" God, who is fundamentally different than us, infinite, and unbound by space and time, must be in the realm of will. In other words, because God's Will is uninfluenced by anything, the greatest similarity that a created being can have to God is to have free will, which is equally uninfluenced by anything. It is only through choosing this closeness to God that it can be integrated into our being, and that our final destination is established based on it. And to the contrary, it is only through actively rejecting it that it distances us from Him, in our relation to our final destination as well. If our will was compelled in any way, our choice would not be our choice and essentially meaningless. 

Further, He does help us if we ask for it.

So what we need is the Savior, the one who is perfect and sinless who can make atonement for us, that which can pay the debt of sin once and for all so that we could be redeemed and made righteous by God.

Not so fast. There is a legal concept that a person or thing that takes on the debt of another must be comparable to that thing. This is something that Pastor Mike Winger addressed in one of his videos on atonement through Jesus. If Jesus is altogether unlike us, in that it would be impossible for him to sin, then he cannot be a substitute for us. Even though you believe that the Second Person took on a flesh so that he was like us, he was not really like us; the physical body that he has is just a facade, because he is sinless and has no ability to sin, unlike us.

Animal sacrifices on the other were like us because an animal is driven by its impulses, which is what drives a human being when he sins as well.

So here's the question, what can be the perfect sacrifices that fully satisfies? Since we are made in God's image, that makes us the greatest in worth of all God's creation. No one else or no thing else is made in God's image. So what then can only redeem that which is made in God's image? The answer could only be God Himself. 

The Savior being God is a double-edged sword; he has to be God to atone for us, but if he is God he can't atone for us because he is not like us. The only way a person can atone for others through suffering is if he is a normal flesh-and-blood human with his own desires, overcame them completely, and then agreed to suffer for the sins of others in their stead.

So we believe as Christians, that the Almighty God who is all powerful and all knowing/wisdom could easily come down from Heaven and manifest into sinless human flesh and remain sinless even though He would be tempted and tested in every way that we were, yet did not sin, so therefore, He could be the perfect atonement being the perfect sinless, spotless, lamb that takes away the sin of the world.

We shouldn't limit God to having to come down as a man to atone for our sins. God can forgive sins without taking on such a form. Remember that the main area of your contention is the apparent flaws in the system, not flaws in God. If God is limited in His ability to redeem due to flaws in the system, God Himself is flawed.

So we see that even the system itself is flawed when we see that there were many animal sacrifices that were done throughout the Tanakh...

I don't think that the system is flawed, but our understanding of it may be. It cannot be that God put a flawed system into practice.

The other option is that God deliberately provided a flawed system, which is not credible in the context of the entire Tanakh. For example, Psalm 51:18-21:

For You do not wish a sacrifice, or I should give it; You do not desire a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; O God, You will not despise a broken and crushed heart. With Your will, do good to Zion; build the walls of Jerusalem. Then You will desire sacrifices of righteousness, a burnt offering and a whole offering; then they will offer up bulls on Your altar.

What this means is that God does want offerings, offerings that are brought in the correct spirit and not as a way of trying to deceive Him.

The places I would go to in the Tanakh in which God prophesied about this is Isaiah 52:13-Isaiah 53 that tells us in detail about the Suffering Servant who would be perfect and take on the punishment for us making all who believe righteous before Him! I know this is a lot to take in and there could be more said but please let me know what you think. Thank you.

I implore you to read things in context for their full benefit. See Isaiah 49:3 before reading Isaiah 52:13-53. That verse says, "And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast." Now read Isaiah 52:13-53, "Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high..."